American Idol 2013

[mercfan3]

Speaking of Lee...was it just me, or was his song a poor man's version of "Home."

edit, and I agree. Jimmy is a business man, he's not an artist. But, he knows what appeals to "the masses." So I think that's what he's trying to instill a bit. Even though that takes a bit of the fun out of idol. I don't know that Jimmy would have liked a "Mad World" performance.

[Himm2]

Speaking of Lee...was it just me, or was his song a poor man's version of "Home."

I was thinkin' the same thing mercfan. If nothing seems to work for you (Lee), plagurize something that worked for somebody else!

[kaypea]

edit, and I agree. Jimmy is a business man, he's not an artist. But, he knows what appeals to "the masses." So I think that's what he's trying to instill a bit.

Jimmy may not be an artist but he's alot more than just a business man.He's worked with a veritable who's who of the last 40 years as record producer and engineer and his list of credits might just add up to more than the combined list of all of the judges.

[mercfan3]

It's his job right now to sell to the masses though. And that's what he's looking for on idol, a contestant to sell to the masses.

[Tom22]

edit, and I agree. Jimmy is a business man, he's not an artist. But, he knows what appeals to "the masses." So I think that's what he's trying to instill a bit.

Jimmy may not be an artist but he's alot more than just a business man.He's worked with a veritable who's who of the last 40 years as record producer and engineer and his list of credits might just add up to more than the combined list of all of the judges.

Yes.. I think that's what sets me off about his wording.

Its one thing to say that the song goes over the head of 85% of the people including his own but for some reason lots of great muscisians really loved it.

Its another thing to say its a terrible song that means nothing because he can't get it. And, even if he doesn't get the lyrics.. with all his experience in music he's got to hear the music and melody over which the lyics rise and fall and musicians bring a meaning to without the lyrics meaning anything.. I mean... I don't have a clue what exactly the Marseilles means but I find it glorious and inspriational expression of love for country and a statement that human priciples exist that are worth fighting for.. (i could care less about what specifically the pricpals are ) lol

Ok the whole thing of someone dismmissing what they don't understand is a big pet peeve of mine.

I don't mind an ignorant uneducated person dismissing things but when I pretty much assume the guy knows a thing or two about music and he lowers the level socities habbits of discussion it sets me off a bit ..

lol ok

on a positive note.. listen to this instrumental version of the song...

don't stop listening before the trumpet solo 7 minutes in... (there's a great sax solo along the way at 5:15 and a trombone solo at 5:45) although I don't think you can listen to the fast parts and appreciate what they're saying without having gone through the odesysy of the slower parts.




My best description would be "epic"

The whole piece says a lot to me and a vocal is just another instrument.. adding the connotations of the collection of words smattered along withing the music that comes out of their mouth.

I can agree with some less that perfect notes etc with Ambers performance.. but to say that she didn't get the sweep of the music and express it truly is really an uncalled for insult from someone that can't get their head around the music... she might not have sang the song at an excellent grade level but, she didn't miss the point of the epic swing of it.

well.. I suppose someone who gets the solos hear and still thinks Amber didn't get the scope of the song is entitled to that opinion.

Guess i'm in a venting mood but I hope you enjoy the video.

[Outcast]

Speaking of Lee...was it just me, or was his song a poor man's version of "Home."

I was thinkin' the same thing mercfan. If nothing seems to work for you (Lee), plagurize something that worked for somebody else!

I'm not a fan of Lee but he's simply returning to his pre Idol music style, while P2 himself said that he doesn't write songs like Home. And Silver Lining features a banjo while Home does not.

[kaypea]

edit, and I agree. Jimmy is a business man, he's not an artist. But, he knows what appeals to "the masses." So I think that's what he's trying to instill a bit.

Jimmy may not be an artist but he's alot more than just a business man.He's worked with a veritable who's who of the last 40 years as record producer and engineer and his list of credits might just add up to more than the combined list of all of the judges.

Yes.. I think that's what sets me off about his wording.

Its one thing to say that the song goes over the head of 85% of the people including his own but for some reason lots of great muscisians really loved it.

Its another thing to say its a terrible song that means nothing because he can't get it. And, even if he doesn't get the lyrics.. with all his experience in music he's got to hear the music and melody over which the lyics rise and fall and musicians bring a meaning to without the lyrics meaning anything.. I mean... I don't have a clue what exactly the Marseilles means but I find it glorious and inspriational expression of love for country and a statement that human priciples exist that are worth fighting for.. (i could care less about what specifically the pricpals are ) lol

Ok the whole thing of someone dismmissing what they don't understand is a big pet peeve of mine.

I don't mind an ignorant uneducated person dismissing things but when I pretty much assume the guy knows a thing or two about music and he lowers the level socities habbits of discussion it sets me off a bit ..

lol ok

on a positive note.. listen to this instrumental version of the song...

don't stop listening before the trumpet solo 7 minutes in... (there's a great sax solo along the way at 5:15 and a trombone solo at 5:45) although I don't think you can listen to the fast parts and appreciate what they're saying without having gone through the odesysy of the slower parts.




My best description would be "epic"

The whole piece says a lot to me and a vocal is just another instrument.. adding the connotations of the collection of words smattered along withing the music that comes out of their mouth.

I can agree with some less that perfect notes etc with Ambers performance.. but to say that she didn't get the sweep of the music and express it truly is really an uncalled for insult from someone that can't get their head around the music... she might not have sang the song at an excellent grade level but, she didn't miss the point of the epic swing of it.

well.. I suppose someone who gets the solos hear and still thinks Amber didn't get the scope of the song is entitled to that opinion.

Guess i'm in a venting mood but I hope you enjoy the video.

I enjoyed the video.My Dad actually had the original recording of it so I'm familiar with it.I enjoyed the solos and can apprecialte the skill that went into the arrangement but that doesn't mean I'm ever gonna like the song.But if its different for you that's great.

In regards to Jimmy's comments that night it wasn't just that song he was griping about.He had similar sentiments to both of Kree's choices and I think the most positive thing he could muster all night was that Candice's choices were too safe. and MacCarther Park came near the end so I got the feeling that his comments about that song were more about pent up frustration with everything the contestants(and the judges) had shown up to then and I think that the sight of the judges giving Amber a standing O just sent him over the top.

Someone else posted on here,in comparing the judges to the ones from The Voice the the judges on Idol make them cringe.Judging from the way Jimmy reacted that night he isn't alone.

[buzzenator]

^^^^Tom, Merc & Kaypea...nice thread and very insightful. The whole discussion brings Haley into play. The comments...

Those that do really like something may number in the millions and any piece of art that millions of people like is a great piece of art even if other's "don't get it".

It's his job right now to sell to the masses though. And that's what he's looking for on idol, a contestant to sell to the masses.

Someone else posted on here,in comparing the judges to the ones from The Voice the the judges on Idol make them cringe.Judging from the way Jimmy reacted that night he isn't alone.

We get Haley, if others don't, it doesn't mean she is not worthy of praise. Just because the masses have not gotten on board doesn't diminish the rare qualities she possesses. There are many great works of art, literature, music that were never embraced by the masses, but are considered timeless classics now.

McDonald's fries were embraced by the masses, but with time, people's perspectives change. What was a smash hit at one time may be perceived later as trendy or shallow with no lasting value.

The judging on Idol is so inconsistent and disjointed, it has lost credibility with the audience. We saw this with the treatment of Haley...does anyone really care what Randy has to say? As for Jimmy, at times I think he and Nikki would make a perfect couple.

[kaypea]

It's his job right now to sell to the masses though. And that's what he's looking for on idol, a contestant to sell to the masses.

The judging on Idol is so inconsistent and disjointed, it has lost credibility with the audience. We saw this with the treatment of Haley...does anyone really care what Randy has to say?

That was my main point-inconsistent and disjointed.Jimmy may be looking to sell someone to the masses but that's at least part of which the judges are looking at also in trying to give these kids their input-or so they say.How many times have you heard Randy-and others- hammer home the importance of making the right song choices-a big part of the reason being(especially as it gets down near the end) that its supposed to define what kind of artist you want to be -remember that one with Haley?-and what direction you're gonna go in.

So then Amber sings Celine Dion and MacCarthur Park,neither of which are close to the direction she will most likely go in and they go nuts.Same thing with Angie whose second song choice came out in 1955 which means the market for it was towards someone from her great grandparents generation.And Nicki Ninaj,of all people loves it? So where's the method to the madness when it comes to critiquing these kids?

And don't get me wrong-I certainly don't always agree with Jimmy and he has his own whacky moments but for that night at least he got my vote.

[Tom22]

Good additional thoughts guys.

I'm tempted to write more on art and philosophy and the different between liking something and respecting it .. and how the two are separate.. but.. that would be along post wouldn't it? ; )

I don't like it = its not very good : that seems to be the rule of the day

If I'm in Japan listening to some ancient Kabuki musical , I'm not going to say the music was bad ... I'm going to say I didn't understand it if i know its something that has stood the test of time there and has been appreciated enough to be saved and restaged etc.

Maybe it's also different for peopl who to take an academic joy in examing things. I can find a real pleasure in trying to get my head around anything thats seems ripe with referencial nuances to it. MacArthur park has an almost existential view point baked into it's melody.... which is interesting to me even if I'm not really an existentialist.

Actually I hate the extremes that liberals erroneously took existentialism too in the 1970's... some how from painting a complexity of context into some misguided nihilistic view that there was no right or wrong.. but.. ..lol that is Definitely for another forum

In thinking more of the muisc last night, I started thinking it had attitudes of Joseph Condrad and Claude Flaubert and how those sort of thoughts were intertwined with the melody itself. I started thinking about the word "Ephemeral"

Then, I realized "ephemeral" is not a word in 95% of peoples normal vocabulary other than its most limited definition and they probably hadn't read Flaubert ..... lol

It's probably a good thing they talked Haley out of singing "Que Sera, Sera" on idol (I'm sure Jimmy would dis that song too rather than saying he was too shallow to buy it)


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As to the consistency of the judges.

I think that they're having trouble with the words they use more than that they are being inconsitent with their opinions.

I don't like the word "current" but, I might use the word "fresh" instead, and even that might not be right.

I've watched a lot of seasons of project runway and while I initially had almost no idea about fashion. I still don't know much... I certainly don't know what it is in.. but I've thought more about what was in over the decades and the flairs of each period.



The Runway judges are also active fashion industry business people aware that sales is a important bottom line

Like on American idol, the PRunway judges want to have seen a "relevant" (their word for current) view point expressed by the challengers throughout the season that they managed to weave through the various theme weeks from ostensibly different periods.

Runway talks a lot about "who is that girl" that an outfit is designed for.

Anyway.... when I heard Angie singing Cry Me a River .... I felt that the song was current in that I bought that she was acting like her 2010's self and singing the lyrics in a way that applied to today .

But, the reasons why are so subtle it would be a morass to put into words.

When Candice sings her songs .... I'm not sure if I'm like.. oh here is a girl that lives in Atlanta who works in Macy's or runs a Gym or teaches school.. .. I don't know the words exactly but is Candice's singing persona current? or current for a given market? The judges seem open to musicians that fit given niche markets ... but current niche markets.

As for Kree, damn I expected so much more from her. If Haley had sung the same songs she did this week Kree's would have looked like object failures... I don't think the wer very good at what they did. If not Haley, think of more country Bonnie Rait singing kree's songs and the open heart of Bonnie Rait that would come through in them. If Kree's audience isn't people who love that type of music and appreciate her from being top notch at it.. then... what different audience was she aiming at with her bearing and choices? That's all a matter of opinion but I can see how they might feel they didn't have an answer to the degree they felt with others.

When Amy Winehouse and Lady Gaga sung old standards with Tony Bennet, despite being true to the old songs they brought something current to their swag that went beyond their (Amy and Gaga's ) exotic makeup.

I think the "current" is about... "who is that girl" that project speaks to as they ask on project runway .

Project runway will name a more traditional designer the win if they feel that person is doing traditional design in a way that will be current within the context of the conservative stores. They named Dimitri winner because his styles were both high quality and "current" within the formal context of a"Llord and Taylor" line. Other years they've named more lets say modern (exotic?) winners but those designers also had to be current within their modern segment.

It comes off better the way they say it on project runway and I think fashion people understand that in a 1920's challenge that designers can stay true to the 1920's while making them look like they could also be worn today.

Anyway. I'm not arguing that the judges are perfectly consistent but I feel like they're pretty consistent although frequently stumbling on which words to use to express it.

Nikki tried to rephrase what she meant by "current" by explaining.. "you're the one I would like to get to know" . That might have gone off equally shallow to some people but I think she was trying to make the point that it was more than about appearance but another level of maybe "a person going forward that you'd want to latch your wagon to?"