Prop 64 passes Colorado election

[Tom22]

Those are really good arguments Tom and a lot of your topics are valid. This is the very bottom line this is what defines freedom from being in bondage and it's called freedom of choice. Whether drugs are legal or they're not the person who feels compelled by either there or addiction or their self pleasure will find a way. Pretty much the same as prohibition that didn't stop anything. But we all know the ending of that it was called taxation. I was the pothead for many years both in the military and out of the military and I went to any length to get my fix. So really who gives a crap if they legalize it or not. To the person who needs it the most he will find a way. It away II got the monkey off my back, and that's real freedom.

Yeah Midnight...

People will get drugs anyway

but

- How easy drugs are to get is a material issue - I watch my weight but I sure and a hell struggle more with that when there are candy and cookies in the house - if I want a candy-bar I can get it anyway but, the obstacle of getting up and going to the store gives me more time to think about whether I want it or not. I can tolerate people using pot but dealing pot or producing it with the intention of distribution is a somewhat different matter for me.

If you've ever seen a guy trying to stay away from crack getting off a bus on the way home from work and having a guy in his face trying to convince him that a 7$ hit wouldn't do him any harm... it would only be once etc.. well it was a pretty turning site. and it wasn't isolated .

He wasn't trying to "get it anyway" .. he was getting taunted and tempted by the demon crack is by having it right there where he could get it .. and very especially by someone prodding him to buy it.

If recreational drug sales and distribution is legalized in a way that makes it hard to get you'll still have the pushers reselling it. The medical marijuana is sold by high school students who got some doctor to sign something to their peers. Its just that much less risky for them to sell more potent product at a lower price. If the prices were taxed severely you get the criminal element back in the picture smuggling in product .. like the high cigarette taxes do some places

- cocaine : a few lines really aren't that harmful. Unfortunately the drug is so damn habit forming even if "used correctly" . Anyone that's been in a social sub-segment that's has it around knows its like skating on thin ice. (im tempted to make a analogy of making sales legal being like someone renting skates next to a lake with thin ice but not sure where i'd go with it)

I'm sure you've known people who got hooked up into cocaine. The expense of it and the illegality of it back when I was young really Helped limit use. Only the richer guys with tons of cash seemed to get really habitual about it and it seems to be self fueling. Because it was illegal, and expensive .. there was less to go around and peoples use ended for the night when their supply ended.

Lets say people could buy a dime at the 7-11 for 5$. That price and availability and legality really would make a difference in how many people got that monkey on their back... you'd agree there wouldn't you? If someone could buy enough for 5 nights of intended use for $20 , if you know the drug, you know that normally pretty sane people will go through far more than they intended - its just that evil sort of substance in itself.

What is worse is once people have tried free-basing, which someone casually using regular cocaine might not think would be too bad a step to do once, a much larger percentage of people who try free basing get into a really really ugly spiral. The high gives just too much exhilaration or something.

Having easy access to regular cocaine , also means easy access to free-basing cocaine ... you can't seperate the two and people free-basing rarely keep their life together.

The harder it is for users to get it, the easier it is to continue not to use it.
-

more - we're not all the same.. it would be blind to expect that we are and pretty damn callous as self governing group to order things knowing that one portion of the group was at grave risk to aid the convenience of others to indulge.

(thankfully) stimulant drugs never did anything for me. I am diagnosed with ADHD. I ve been taking a slow release heavy stimulant for almost 10 years now every day. It would have 90% of the population bouncing off walls and unable to function. My body chemistry and many others with the same diagnosis is such that the stimulant relaxes me and helps me focus rather than rushing from thing to thing, unable to sit still etc. Exact opposite effect as the other 90% of the population

- as a species we're the same in most ways but there are differences too

People can't judge others by how drugs effect them and expect that others are facing the same choices -

What we can do is observe how people react even if we don't know the sensations inside of them and the physiological changes in thought process.

... its pretty clear to me how dangerous cocaine is for others -- it seems especially able to draw in people who have their life together and don't have other careless or reckless traits to begin with -- but then can twist them . Of course it also draws in people looking for escape or self destructive initially etc.. but cocaine is so damn seductive in its effect that its dangerous for a far bigger group.

There is also a major step between something being legal to carry and something that is commercially distributed. Good distribution and high quality products with less risk has got to lead to more sales of virtually anything.

I know the arguments saying that more people try something because its illegal. I have mixed feelings there. Maybe making something illicit makes it feel cooler to try but once you've got a taste for it the easier it is to buy on impulse and the less reinforcement of the idea that its bad, the more people who've tried it and don't plan to use it more are going to be tempted over and over.

While some people will be attracted to the wild side there are also large numbers of people who use conformance to the law and sleezyness feelings about places to help regulate what they are comfortable with doing as a person.

I know how costly the war on drugs is. I know what a wast


There has got to be something between making something a serious felony and still making it an unpermitted business.
--

but this started with pot.

I brought up cocaine and the bigger issues to try to claim that its not a clear bright line whether or not pot use is private affair -

I've tried many and smoked pot regularly in college.

I've got a 15 year old boy. To be honest, I'm probably more comfortable with the idea of him using -some- pot than him drinking. -- eventually... I'd be pretty strict in punishing him now.

...and that punishment thing within the family is also very related to how society approaches it . Yes I know he'll try the stuff. Yes I know it would be unrealistic for me to expect him to be perfect. But I also know it is my role as a parent to be tougher than shit about it when he's young because if I give and inch he'll take a mile. If I don't give an inch maybe he'll only take a quarter mile, and i'm secretly ok with a quarter mile.

I'm not sure legalizing pot would cause it's use to sky-rocket out of control. Habitual pot use takes a more willing victim. I do know the drug though and it is different than alcohol in terms of exactly how it effects thinking and attitudes. I think its risks are particularly higher for kids at a point where they're defining themselves and really wanting to have a crutch to quit trying at an unpleasant task school might be. Once you like what you're doing , pot is probably less risky than alcohol...but that's all moving into tricky and very subjective descriptions.

[midnightblues]

Looks like I might have to give away my age here, I started smoking weed 1963 and it wasn't until 1986 when my second child was born that I stopped. Everything in between throughout the service civilian life the hippie generation there was a lot of experiences some good some not so good. There was an expression that We to say it goes like this there's no hope without dope. It just all starts with pot and it escalates. And even if it was legal the government would find some way to screw it up. And yes this is very true it all starts with marijuana, I dabbled in a lot of different psychedelics ,opiates Aven tried smoking banana peels at one time, remember the mellow yellow? To me I think it's over with the drugs and alcohol and im fortunate to have had the opportunity to walk away from it. That's really having the monkey off my back. And it's was a huge burden I regret many things that I did while under the influence. I'm just pretty lucky that I never ended up killing anybody you know driving and drinking and smoking. I think my biggest regret is screwing up my musical career I had a good thing going, but I chose getting loaded over that. Anyways I'm just rambling on.

[NUG]

I enjoy reading everyone's opinions.

I think the point of the issue here is "they" are trying to say pot is equal to alcohol, IMO (only because I'm pretty much a non drinker) it's not as harmful as alcohol. To keep it in the same category as heroin etc., is wrong, and thankfully the majority of people realize that. In regards to teenagers, yes, chances are high they will try it, but my stepdaughter (27) still never has, and my son (almost 15) doesn't plan to either. I tell him the truth, that I feel it should be legal for people over 21, but that I think it can steal a persons ambition. I tell him that's especially dangerous for teens, because he needs to focus & make sure he has the best start in life & the most options at HS graduation. Hopefully he keeps this point of view, he promised me to never smoke pot, do drugs or start smoking...

[Tom22]

Looks like I might have to give away my age here, I started smoking weed 1963 and it wasn't until 1986 when my second child was born that I stopped. Everything in between throughout the service civilian life the hippie generation there was a lot of experiences some good some not so good. There was an expression that We to say it goes like this there's no hope without dope. It just all starts with pot and it escalates. And even if it was legal the government would find some way to screw it up. And yes this is very true it all starts with marijuana, I dabbled in a lot of different psychedelics ,opiates Aven tried smoking banana peels at one time, remember the mellow yellow? To me I think it's over with the drugs and alcohol and im fortunate to have had the opportunity to walk away from it. That's really having the monkey off my back. And it's was a huge burden I regret many things that I did while under the influence. I'm just pretty lucky that I never ended up killing anybody you know driving and drinking and smoking. I think my biggest regret is screwing up my musical career I had a good thing going, but I chose getting loaded over that. Anyways I'm just rambling on.

Wow, Midnight, that’s a personal story and I think you know that I understand every word of it.

I like to look at it more like "the 10,000 nth drink was enough" (wish it were only that many but hey). I enjoyed my share of the bountiful harvest enough to last a lifetime ( bit of a wink there, but not entirely)
No need to draw judgments on what others should do or universally reject all the great memories that did happen while having a few because of the not so pleasant memories. That unsolvable riddle of whether drinking was good or bad or what the exact definition of a problem is etc are all distractions used for delaying a decision going forward…today is today.

I’ll share one personal piece of advice though:

If you let that monkey climb back on everyonce in a while you’ll be continually spending a great deal of focus and energy struggling to keep him off.

It will take a couple years of consistently turning him away 100% of the time before he stops being a distraction …but he’ll stop pestering you to get back on board eventually if you never give him a glimmer of a chance.

I can pour my friends drinks at my house now and keep wine and beer in the refrigerator without a thought. I now have no longing watching others drink or watering of my mouth seeing the bottles occasionally at the back of the fridge (though I wouldn’t have tortured myself like that that the first few years after finishing up my life’s allotment).

I think a occasionally having a few drinks is good for most people... but I've had my share already.

Now, I only get a slight shudder of horror when I see a friend I used to party with leave ½ of his third drink on the table without having given it a thought. I don’t have the quote exactly but Steven King had something like that in his semi biography - “ I’ve been sober for 7 years and have no wavering doubts about it but to this day if I’m at a restaurant and I see someone at a neighboring table get up leaving half a glass of wine , a voice inside me wants to shout at her as she leaves “will you finish that fucking thing” (that wasn’t precisely his words but close… and damn its too true…that monkey still lurks) . I'm sure it sounds like irrational hyperbole to people who'd never even notice a detail like that let alone feel an irrational lunge of emotion over it.

[midnightblues]

The Monkey still lurks. but over time and contuined soberity The monkey looses it power.Lol I like the example of ( will you finish the drink) cause if you don't I will. That was my mentality.

[Babbs234]

Thank you Tom, and midnight for sharing your personal stories with us. Good points brought up. And having kids does put things in perspective. We set an example for how they will live their lives. And sometimes, seeing us with our bad habits, such as smoking or alcohol, or whatever, will turn them off to ever starting to go down that path.

[Tusk]

I really don't see the comparison between MJ and Cocaine or Meth or Heroine....MJ does no where near as much damage physically or psychollogically as Meth Cocaine or Heroine, or even alcohol or tobacco, for that matter...

If you become addicted to pot, it's more than likely that it's because you have an addictive personality and are likely to be addicted to more than just MJ. Pot, in and of itself, is not addictive...you don't get any where the physical or mental 'withdrawal' from pot the way you get with ANY of those others...including alcohol and tobacco, when trying to quit them.

When you are relating your point by using extreme examples...why not use Oxycontin, Codeine, Ambien or Valium???....these are addictive LEGAL and MAN MADE by Pharmaceuticals, and getting off the addiction of these is far more difficult that MJ, not to mention ALL the SIDE EFFECTS that you need more drugs to cure.
Instead, to chose to compare MJ to the 'boogie man' of Cocaine, Heroine etc..., just like what the govt's been doing for all these years. Pharmaceutical drug addiction is huge among teens nowadays...they steal from their parents, and it doesn't have the stigma that MJ does....because it's Mommy's/Daddy's 'medicine'

The argument loses its point when the point is exaggerated/misrepresented to that extent...like clipping toenails with a chainsaw.

I enjoy reading everyone's opinions.

I think the point of the issue here is "they" are trying to say pot is equal to alcohol, IMO (only because I'm pretty much a non drinker) it's not as harmful as alcohol. To keep it in the same category as heroin etc., is wrong, and thankfully the majority of people realize that. In regards to teenagers, yes, chances are high they will try it, but my stepdaughter (27) still never has, and my son (almost 15) doesn't plan to either. I tell him the truth, that I feel it should be legal for people over 21, but that I think it can steal a persons ambition. I tell him that's especially dangerous for teens, because he needs to focus & make sure he has the best start in life & the most options at HS graduation. Hopefully he keeps this point of view, he promised me to never smoke pot, do drugs or start smoking...

I agree with NUG...the ultimate defense regarding any of these things is an open dialogue with your kids. If you lie or over exaggerate, and they KNOW that you are (just an open browser on the internet away), they will know that you are lying to them, with just a check.... then they will try anyway. The hope is that you raise your children right, informed and armed to be able to make the right, educated, decision when the situation presents itself and you are not there.

I don't want to be put in danger by people high on drugs either...that's MJ, Ambien, Oxycontin, Alcohol, Cocaine....all drugs. I don't think that is pertinent to this argument....someone texting going 70 mph on a highway can kill you just as easily.

The point of the vote is partially against this HUMONGOUS waste of resources for DECADES on this 'war' that will not end soon....lives and money ...spent to prohibit a simple plant that is siginificantly less "dangerous" than all listed drugs above.

Even though you can't have pot until Dec 6th, we have already seen a savings to the tax payers, as the Prosecutors of King and Pierce Counties have decided to drop over 220 minor possesion cases ....that's already a savings on all the court costs, jails, lawyers and legal filings....
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2...ethru.html

more than 241,000 people statewide were arrested for possession over the past 25 years, at an estimated cost of more than $305 million

.
http://mobile.seattletimes.com/story/tod...ack-.-.-./

I'm not sure legalizing pot would cause it's use to sky-rocket out of control. Habitual pot use takes a more willing victim. I do know the drug though and it is different than alcohol in terms of exactly how it effects thinking and attitudes. I think its risks are particularly higher for kids at a point where they're defining themselves and really wanting to have a crutch to quit trying at an unpleasant task school might be. Once you like what you're doing , pot is probably less risky than alcohol...but that's all moving into tricky and very subjective descriptions.

On this I can agree...Children should not have access to ANY of the drugs discussed. Their mind and body are developing and introducing any type of drug into the equation may alter development negatively and irrevocably. I could never advocate that, and why I say the best prevention is knowledge and knowing they can come to you and get an honest answer.
(Of course this is a very generalised and in many cases unrealistic opinion, every child is different and reacts differently to any given situation. I understand parenthood cannot be encapsulated so simply. I mean it in philosophical, rather than 'applied', terms.)

[midnightblues]

MJ is the starting point and Children need to be educated as to what MJ can lead to. I have raised 3 daughters and there drug free even thought there mother and I used for a seasion. I got sober but drugs and alcohol took the life of there mother.No matter what you say to your kids , it's still there choice. The WOLF is always at the door

[NUG]

Midnight, I'm sorry for you and your daughters loss.

MJ is a stop along the way if you're already on the path moving into addiction. IMO there are other starting points, cigarettes and alcohol being the first two most kids start with, on that path. MJ is less destructive and addictive than cigarettes and alcohol, IMO it's not addictive at all, although there are a couple withdrawal symptoms when quitting - mild irritation and a strong (short lasting, and not insurmountable) desire for more. A young person looking to shut out lifes problems through outside influences will try all kinds of things: eating disorders, their parents prescription drugs and alcohol, sex, cutting (which sadly is out of control with young girls right now) etc. they have many choices. I guess I just wonder why there aren't mandates to put locks on all medicine cabinets, or why there isn't a move to outlaw alcohol, or required therapy for troubled kids, when clearly these things are much more destructive to our teens than MJ.

I want to add that even though I'm a supporter of legalization, in no way do I mandate smoking in front of, or in smell of, a child, teen or anyone else. I also get really irritated when my DH drinks too much in front of our son, and acts like an azz. IMO that is more destructive to a kid than knowing their parent smokes pot.

I wanted to also say thank you again to the people expressing opinions, and letting us into the reasoning for their thoughts. I do not take addiction lightly, I have my own (non-drug or alcohol related) addictive struggles as well.

[midnightblues]

Thank you Nug all is well now, she died in 06and we had bin divorced sence 98, bty what is DH???? darling husband??I have so many stories about addiction, and myself and my wife acting up in front of our children but I will let that rest. And I will let her memory rest. I was very concerned about Haley falling into the trap of getting high. I know she likes to drink and she probably has smoked MJ. And in the type of business that she is in addiction runs rampant and is so available. I do pray for Haley, for her protection against substance and for her to make wise choices.