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The Voice Season 8
06-15-2015, 06:29 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-15-2015, 06:32 AM by Miguel.)
#21
RE: The Voice Season 8
Quote:The Voice's Kimberly Nichole Talks 'What's Up,' 'House of the Rising Sun' and Industry Ageism

TVLINE | Your other big moment on the show was “Creep,” dropping to the ground, with that total emotional collapse and that haunted music-box arrangement. You went on Twitter and noted that it had been inspired by Postmodern Jukebox and Haley Reinhart’s cover, but there was still some controversy on social media about the similarities. I thought theirs had a little more New Orleans jazz, while yours was a little more theatrical…

I mean, child, that was controversy over nothing. People were talking about how I was a thief. I was like, “What?”

Anyway, I wanted to do “Dirty Diana” that week. Christina was like, “No. You need a vulnerable moment.” Then she showed me Haley Reinhart’s version of Radiohead’s “Creep.” The dropping to the ground was all planned — Christina’s creative director Jerry was like, “You need to drop to the ground. You need to collapse into your vulnerability,” and it was such an emotional performance for me. All of it was very true. It spoke to who I was and how I feel about myself, how I feel about being the black girl that does rock, the black girl with these weird tutus, and how a lot of people don’t get it. It was really me really surrendering to who I am in the moment, and accepting, “You are different, Kim, you are a creep, you are a weirdo. It’s a good thing though.”

http://tvline.com/2015/06/14/kimberly-ni...interview/
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06-15-2015, 02:35 PM,
#22
RE: The Voice Season 8
Okay, so I was wrong and Christina did know of it, but I still say they don't always do. (For instance, Kimberly still doesn't know why Dirty Diana isn't on youtube..and fans do...because the show hasn't gotten the rights too..Meaning the show didn't tell her that if she sang "Dirty Diana" it wouldn't be up on youtube, which, IMO..was a huge reason she went home..) And you really don't know where songs and styles are coming from on The Voice.

So yes, I do wish they had given credit on air. But I also think the arrangement is different, and Scott can't claim every jazz redo of every song as his arrangement. He's a great enough musician to know that the arrangement and style..although jazz..was different. And I also think people went overboard towards Kim. Once again, even if she wanted to give credit, she might not have been able to. (And for all she knew, Christina showing her the Haley/PMJ version or Christina or her talking about it could have been in the prepackage footage. She would have been filmed then too.) Going after NBC..fine..go at it. Even Carson Daly I'd probably hold responsible. Christina and Kim have fans..that are potential Haley fans. You don't want backlash..and quite frankly, it's not a nice thing to do without a Haley agenda.

But now I'm also officially convinced that Christina Aguilera is a closet Halien. The fact that she has her powerhouse female vocalists consistently sing the Haley Reinhart songbook (Jacquie and Kim sang House of "The Rising Sun", India sang "The Earth Song," obviously Kim sang "Creep"...there are a ton more examples) At some point it should have stopped being a coincidence. Anyone know if Haley has ever been asked to do the show? I know they asked Mary Lambert to do it after "Same Love" and they obviously asked Christina Grimmie..so they go after already somewhat established people..but being that the show is clearly aware of her..Not that it would be wise for Haley to do it, I don't think it would. But out of curiosity..
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06-15-2015, 02:55 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-15-2015, 03:31 PM by Tusk.)
#23
RE: The Voice Season 8
(06-15-2015, 02:35 PM)mercfan3 Wrote: But I also think the arrangement is different, and Scott can't claim every jazz redo of every song as his arrangement. He's a great enough musician to know that the arrangement and style..although jazz..was different.

Even though in the article Kim says outright that they used PMJ's cover to base their 'version' Scott should not have called them out?

I guess you have to be in the creative industry of ideas to understand what it's like, from the bottom, to work your way up, and have much more powerful influential entities, rip you off by changing a note here and there....

They stole his arrangement, may have changed it just a bit, Kim admitted it, yet Scott is wrong for calling out a Television behemoth for not at least giving him credit (didn't ask for money, just credit).... They still haven't... and Scott is wrong because it's slightly different, even though the singer themselves admitted it... OK...

Quote:Scott Bradlee ‏@scottbradlee Jun 12
just stumbled upon a collection of synthesized PMJ karaoke tracks. I suppose I should release some official ones...

Quote:Scott Bradlee ‏@scottbradlee Jun 12
..plus, that would save @NBCTheVoice @DancingABC & @BBCTheVoiceUK the trouble of having to re record in order to rip off my arrangements

As someone who has brought himself from nothing other than the talents of he and his artists, I think Scott has every right to be upset about others claiming his arragement, however 'slightly' changed, as theirs....

Sorry you can't convince me Scott was wrong and NBC was right

Sam Smith lost the court battle with Tom Petty and the two songs compared are so much more different than what NBC tried to pass off as their own, I can't believe there are still people that try to tell me it's different enough to not give Scott credit for... See if these songs are less similar than the two versions of Creep, yet Petty won....




IMO, based on an actual case in reality, Scott would easily win his challenge that NBC stole from his arrangement, especially that Kim has said it herself... Scott has every right to be upset.

Also, by the interview, it's clear, at least to me, that Kim has no idea the gravity of a situation where one Artist steals from another. She is in an industry that is under attack from piracy, unit sales are plummeting because people won't pay for music when it's so readily taken digitally, that she has no grasp of the seriousness of an artist's right to their intellectual and creative properties? SMH

Wait 'til she gets a taste of the medicine on whatever she creates and see if she can be as easily dismissive or flippant about it when others steal from her (and I don't mean what ever corporate entity she signs up with)

Additionally, look at how well Scott has treated Joey for just doing the right thing on American Idol... Is it a stretch that Scott might extend a hand to Kim if she did similarly? Might have even got a nod from Haley? I sense no contrition to at least feel badly about her part in the circumstances, a 'whatever' attitude from Kim... As a more mature woman in a young person's industry, Kim has a tough enough path to climb, not wise to close doors before your journey has even begun....
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06-15-2015, 05:19 PM,
#24
RE: The Voice Season 8
If the industry thought they could make good money off of Kimberly Nichole,
the only door that might possibly be closed to her is the one leading to PMJ.

I don't think Haley or PMJ fans would have reacted so virulently if The Voice had not lauded Kimberly for her approach to the song (or if she had redirected their praise).
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06-15-2015, 06:06 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-15-2015, 06:09 PM by mercfan3.)
#25
RE: The Voice Season 8
Quite frankly, I'm just hoping that in the future we can be the more mature fanbase. That's what bothered me. It went way overboard, a lot of assumptions were made, and Kim even gave credit. (Notice Scott never went after Kim or Christina). But that wasn't good enough.


It's not protocol to thank people or give credit on these shows when arrangements are used. Sometimes it's not even possible for the contestants to do so. It's the nice thing to do, it's just not an obligation. David Cook won Idol singing straight covers of other people's arrangements of different songs. Given the clear differences between Kim's and Haley's covers (Only the jazz idea and the piano in the introduction are similar, truthfully..the arrangements after the first verse and Kim's melodic changes are completely different.), it's clear it was definitely an inspiration.


You mentioned that Scott has been good to Joey after she gave credit. Well, Christina freaking Aguilera has heard of Haley Reinhart. In fact she was inspired by Haley Reinhart.

You know Christina took an unknown duo, sang a duet with them on a little song called "Say Something.." and they had the number one song in the country for like eight months, they are signed to a major label now and their lives are completely changed.

Fans can make people sour on artists quickly. Remember that.

BTW: Sam smith didn't lose that court case, he settled it because he didn't want to have it be an issue while his song was blowing up.
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06-15-2015, 06:12 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-15-2015, 07:15 PM by Tusk.)
#26
RE: The Voice Season 8
Or he knew he was wrong or was not going to win, and decided to settle....

Taking credit for someone else's work leaves a bad taste in other artists mouths, she took credit when they lauded her for "Her" arrangement, she can also take the consequences which may include others not wanting to work with her... remember that too

(06-15-2015, 02:35 PM)mercfan3 Wrote: He's a great enough musician to know that the arrangement and style..although jazz..was different.

If you truly believe this about Scott, then it follows that if he's still irked about it as recently as the 12th of this month, then I guess, Scott, the great enough musician, knows his work when he hears it?

From the interview:

Quote: I would never have been able to do Linda Perry’s “What’s Up” without Christina sending out a personal email for Linda to approve it.

In other words, they asked permission from a known artist, but decided PMJ weren't worth asking(crediting) because they're too small to worry about? So they do know about music rights? Just not when you're the big guy and stealing from the 'little guy' Cristina knows better, that she presented PMJ's version and credit was still not given? Yeah, nothing wrong with that...

I know what you're saying about fans, but I tweeted about it, what 3 times? I'm such a threat to Cristina that she'll forever dislike Haley and her fans because out of all the millions of Tweets, I tweeted my upset that Kim accepted credit for someone else's work as her own? I guess I have more influence than I thought

How about we turn it around? is it wise for Kim to upset Haley's fans? Is it wise to be known to other artists as someone who doesn't care who she takes from as hers?

I for one can't even get myself to listen to her, no matter how talented, because I'm upset at her not even understanding how wrong it is to take credit for some else's work. Why should I worry about Kim's fans if all they care about is following someone who is belligerent about the rules in the industry she chose to work in?

I might be willing to give her a bit of a pass as time went on, but that she obviously views this as no big deal says all needs to be said about whether, given the opportunity, she would have given credit in the first place

As I said, IF she get's to make HER music, lets see how she reacts when it's her music that someone else takes credit and profits from as their own...
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06-15-2015, 07:54 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-15-2015, 08:04 PM by mercfan3.)
#27
RE: The Voice Season 8
I don't really care about Kim and her fans. She's immensely talented, and I wish her all the success in the world, but I won't follow her past the show. (Far more interested in Sawyer and Mia Z. ) Other than I didn't think she should have been the target of fans vitriol.

I do care about Haley. And I'm glad you understand where I'm coming from. It's not your one voice that concerns me. It's the mob effect. And I don't want Haley's fans to have a bad reputation.

This permission stuff is all about legal ability. Christina needed to personally ask Linda Perry to use "What's Up" because Linda Perry doesn't clear her songs for Idol or The Voice. PMJ has no legal right to "Creep." They don't have to ask permission to use that.

Now, if this really bothers Scott, then he should get some legal protections, whatever they may be. Does he copyright his arrangement? Does he ask for credit anywhere on his site? If he doesn't want the status quo (which is, television shows can use arrangements off of youtube without asking permission) to be true for his arrangements, than he should protect his music. Television shows will respect that.

But I think Scott knows better. I think he knows that even without getting credit his version of "Creep" was found by many people after being on The Voice, some of them bought his song, some of them might have gone to the tour. So making it even a little hard for a network show to play his music means his music isn't as exposed as it could be.

The music world is in a lot of gray areas right now, IMO. Youtube has opened up a lot of doors for people, and the music industry and music law hasn't caught up. Sampling has been the new way to create music. To be honest, the Sam Smith and Pharrell Williams court decisions have bothered a lot of musicians. Most say that Iggy Azalea's music steals far more than Sam Smith's and Pharrell's.

How much rights does a person have to an arrangement of a song they covered? At the end of the day, these aren't Scott's, lyrics or melodies. What about sampling? What about songs that just coincidently sound the same..pop music has a format too it, eventually it'll run out of new patterns.

These are all questions that the law hasn't caught up with. And network televisions don't care about "the little guy"..that's true..but it's not even really that. They only care about what they can and can't do legally. Will it cost them money? Will it cost them time? It's why we hear the same songs over and over again on these shows.
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06-15-2015, 08:01 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-15-2015, 08:07 PM by Tusk.)
#28
RE: The Voice Season 8
Looks like she doesn't seem to give two shakes about the mountain she has to climb to get where she wants to be....

Quote:KimberlyNichole
Yesterday at 12:20pm · Edited ·
Listen... My shows come with power vocals, style, showmanship, moving moments, REAL talk, charisma and COLORFUL language! If you're easily offended by the words FUCK, SHIT etc.... You should probably take your ass to Disneyland. Rock & Roll. (Pls note I have done all of this in front of my mom, dad and great grandma .. They loooove it...They know it's my personality .. And it's entertainment and me being myself it its truest and rawest form! Rock and roll kids!!!!)

Add that to the already formidable obstacle of beginning her career at her age and being a 'reality show contestant'.... tell some of your potential fans you don't need em Rolleyes
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06-15-2015, 08:09 PM,
#29
RE: The Voice Season 8
(06-15-2015, 07:54 PM)mercfan3 Wrote: I don't really care about Kim and her fans. She's immensely talented, and I wish her all the success in the world, but I won't follow her past the show. (Far more interested in Sawyer and Mia Z. )


I do care about Haley. And I'm glad you understand where I'm coming from. It's not your one voice that concerns me. It's the mob effect. And I don't want Haley's fans to have a bad reputation.

This permission stuff is all about legal ability. Christina needed to personally ask Linda Perry to use "What's Up" because Linda Perry doesn't clear her songs for Idol or The Voice. PMJ has no legal right to "Creep." They don't have to ask permission to use that.

Now, if this really bothers Scott, then he should get some legal protections, whatever they may be. Does he copyright his arrangement? Does he ask for credit anywhere on his site? If he doesn't want the status quo (which is, television shows can use arrangements off of youtube without asking permission) to be true for his arrangements, than he should protect his music. Television shows will respect that.

But I think Scott knows better. I think he knows that even without getting credit his version of "Creep" was found by many people after being on The Voice, some of them bought his song, some of them might have gone to the tour. So making it even a little hard for a network show to play his music means his music isn't as exposed as it could be.

The music world is in a lot of gray areas right now, IMO. Youtube has opened up a lot of doors for people, and the music industry and music law hasn't caught up. Sampling has been the new way to create music. To be honest, the Sam Smith and Pharrell Williams court decisions have bothered a lot of musicians. Most say that Iggy Azalea's music steals far more than Sam Smith's and Pharrell's.

How much rights does a person have to an arrangement of a song they covered? At the end of the day, these aren't Scott's, lyrics or melodies. What about sampling? What about songs that just coincidently sound the same..pop music has a format too it, eventually it'll run out of new patterns.

All good points, mercfan. While I've thought that Ryan Seacrest opened the door so that Joey could provide credit to Scott, the other "uses," and thus contestants, of Scott's arrangements this past spring haven't necessary been given that opportunity that we know of, and, perhaps, the contestants don't feel that they have the option of mentioning where the idea originated.

On the other hand, while you mentioned David Cook's use of other's arrangements without acknowledgement, Adam Lambert was quite determined to make certain that the viewing audience knew whose arrangement he was borrowing. And it wasn't always solicited. I don't know the specifics of that, but it is an interesting element that needs to be considered.
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06-15-2015, 08:53 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-15-2015, 09:07 PM by mercfan3.)
#30
RE: The Voice Season 8
And to be honest, I wonder if Ryan would have done that if three former Idols weren't a part playing a role in PMJ, and three former Voice contestants were..Truthfully, these shows tend to give the artist enough time to say "thank you" to the judges comments. Especially The Voice..in fact, most of the time on The Voice, the contestant doesn't say a word after their performance.

I always appreciated that Adam would do that..but to be honest, I think it bothers me more with Idol than with The Voice because it's not the artist not receiving credit that bothers me..it's the contestant taking credit for the arrangement.

On Idol, the contestant will get credit for the arrangement unless they state otherwise. And often times the judges will comment on how much of a musician they are. Idol likes to push that.."we have artists" "We have musicians" "Look at how brilliant these contestants are."

On The Voice it's assumed that the contestant didn't come up with the arrangement. The show is all about coach/outside influences. In fact, even when the contestants do get to make artistic decisions, the show tries to make it look like it didn't come from them. I can't think of one time where Sawyer got credit for his arrangements and changes to the melody. It was just assumed that it was Pharrell, (Heck..Pharrell had to constantly tell the Coaches that his contestants picked their own song, because that was assumed too) when if you look at Sawyer's songs..covers and originals..it's clear it was all him. Christina Grimmie is another prime example. Adam Levine got credit for her song choices every week, even though they were all of her youtube covers.

The shows are just different. Idol, at it's best, is completely about the contestants. That's good and bad. It's good because people get to know them as artists, contestants get to show their creativity and have their own authority and identity.

But it's bad in a tv show sense..because that means there's a story. Their needs to be an antagonist, a dark horse, roles need to be played. How many times has the pretty girl contestant been victimized? (Nikki, Diana, Katherine, Carly, Syesha, Alison, Haley, Jessica sanchez, Jessica Meuse...) The contestants have to create the drama..that means that they aren't always in the best atmosphere.

The Voice tried to be the nice show. In order to do that, they decided that any banter would be between the coaches. They sold the show as the nice show..the show that gives people an opportunity to work with established stars. So the established stars are the stars of the show. That means it's a nicer atmosphere. There has never been a Haley situation and there never will be. Unless it happens live, a bad performance is almost never shown. They don't really judge, they leave the improvement to the coaching sessions..but because the coaches are the stars people don't get as attached to contestants. And the contestants have a lot of outside influences (producers/coach/coaches team)..It's good in a way. Adam Levine takes the blame for bad song selection, not his contestant. It's "That poor contestant..Adam got them again." But it's bad in that the contestant doesn't get a chance to be authentically themselves and to exercise creative control unless the coach fights for them to get it (Which, Pharrell apparently did this season. Usher did for specific contestants, and Gwen did...that's about it..) and they want to sell an artist like that.
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