James, Haley and whoever

[Outcast]

In my opinion James is an outstanding singer I really like his voice he has the pipes, and he also has high range velocity.

The boy and his act are stuck back in the 80s there is nothing original about him jumping around stage it's been done before by so many big hair metal bands.

James was a unique contestant, no one else before him nor since him performed metal on the show - he's the original metal contestant.

Energetic showmanship is largely missing from the modern rock scene where most of the frontmen play instruments. That what he did has been done before is not what matters, that his vocal and performance style is missing from current rock/metal is what does - it's what makes him stand out among his competitors in the current market. When he performs at rock festivals (which is a competitive environment) it's his vocals and his showmanship that gets him noticed.

Producers and record companies are looking for unique acts original acts and that holds a lot of water. When I saw him on Idol I was thinking his acting has all been done by some other artist and there's nothing new about it.

I have to agree with what Tusk said that the music biz is actually mostly looking for cookie cutter acts devoid of uniqueness and originality, eg: "the next Bieber" or "the next Taylor Swift" or whatever.

But anyway James did get signed and has worked big names in songwriting and production, and is doing so again now, though he's doing more of the writing this time.

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@Tusk

I can roughly divide James' fans into 3 groups:

1. Those who are Idol fans, they watch every season and James was their S10 fave (some are into hard rock/metal, some are not)

2. Those who are not Idol fans, they don't watch the show but started watching because of James (mostly metalheads)

3. Those who didn't discover James via Idol but via live performance while he was on tour (again mostly metalheads)

The fans at MJs are the fans in the first category, these are also the fans that make up most to the private FB fan groups. The other 2 categories are usually only found on twitter, YouTube and rock/metal sites.

[midnightblues]

In my opinion James is an outstanding singer I really like his voice he has the pipes, and he also has high range velocity.

The boy and his act are stuck back in the 80s there is nothing original about him jumping around stage it's been done before by so many big hair metal bands.

James was a unique contestant, no one else before him nor since him performed metal on the show - he's the original metal contestant.

Energetic showmanship is largely missing from the modern rock scene where most of the frontmen play instruments. That what he did has been done before is not what matters, that his vocal and performance style is missing from current rock/metal is what does - it's what makes him stand out among his competitors in the current market. When he performs at rock festivals (which is a competitive environment) it's his vocals and his showmanship that gets him noticed.

Producers and record companies are looking for unique acts original acts and that holds a lot of water. When I saw him on Idol I was thinking his acting has all been done by some other artist and there's nothing new about it.

I have to agree with what Tusk said that the music biz is actually mostly looking for cookie cutter acts devoid of uniqueness and originality, eg: "the next Bieber" or "the next Taylor Swift" or whatever.

But anyway James did get signed and has worked big names in songwriting and production, and is doing so again now, though he's doing more of the writing this time.

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@Tusk

I can roughly divide James' fans into 3 groups:

1. Those who are Idol fans, they watch every season and James was their S10 fave (some are into hard rock/metal, some are not)

2. Those who are not Idol fans, they don't watch the show but started watching because of James (mostly metalheads)

3. Those who didn't discover James via Idol but via live performance while he was on tour (again mostly metalheads)

The fans at MJs are the fans in the first category, these are also the fans that make up most to the private FB fan groups. The other 2 categories are usually only found on twitter, YouTube and rock/metal sites.

Thank you for the rundown Outcast Peace out bro

[buzzenator]

How many times has Hales sang with a full band? a few It has bin John courtney and keth. ANd I think she will blossom as a singer, but with what musicans will she have? a full band , or just a GuitarIMO she can do well in any musical situation

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sighhh

So, Haley doesn't need to improve by gaining experience touring with her band because she's complete as is? To continue playing in small bars with one or two of her band? I don't believe that's where Haley's goals for herself end. The point is to grow a career, not stay as you are...

All we're saying is she needs touring experience (that she didn't get last year), and if she's going to stay with the same band, they can only improve by playing more together.... I don't get what you don't get....

IMHO...why an assumption that she needs a band to become complete?

The premise that she will grow if she puts a band together may be misguided for a solo artist. She has sung with a variety of musicians...Ali's 70th birthday, Carnegie Hall, IHeart radio, Allen Stone, etc. 2012 was an excellent first year for Haley's journey. The only thing, and I'm serious, that she lacked was a hit song. We wouldn't be having this discussion about growing if she had had a hit song.

Haley has never stated she was in this to create a new band. Usually, we see the opposite, where the lead singer of a band breaks off and becomes a solo artist. If anything, we all viewed Haley as a solo artist from the get-go.

Yes, playing more gigs (touring) is helpful for any artist. I just don't see something inadequate about her first year on the journey to a long and promising career. But then that's just me...

[midnightblues]

IM done

[Tusk]

How many times has Hales sang with a full band? a few It has bin John courtney and keth. ANd I think she will blossom as a singer, but with what musicans will she have? a full band , or just a GuitarIMO she can do well in any musical situation

---

sighhh

So, Haley doesn't need to improve by gaining experience touring with her band because she's complete as is? To continue playing in small bars with one or two of her band? I don't believe that's where Haley's goals for herself end. The point is to grow a career, not stay as you are...

All we're saying is she needs touring experience (that she didn't get last year), and if she's going to stay with the same band, they can only improve by playing more together.... I don't get what you don't get....

IMHO...why an assumption that she needs a band to become complete?

The premise that she will grow if she puts a band together may be misguided for a solo artist. She has sung with a variety of musicians...Ali's 70th birthday, Carnegie Hall, IHeart radio, Allen Stone, etc. 2012 was an excellent first year for Haley's journey. The only thing, and I'm serious, that she lacked was a hit song. We wouldn't be having this discussion about growing if she had had a hit song.

Haley has never stated she was in this to create a new band. Usually, we see the opposite, where the lead singer of a band breaks off and becomes a solo artist. If anything, we all viewed Haley as a solo artist from the get-go.

Yes, playing more gigs (touring) is helpful for any artist. I just don't see something inadequate about her first year on the journey to a long and promising career. But then that's just me...

Reread my post, I said IF she is going to stay with the same band, she could benefit more from touring and gelling with them. The band or who she performs with is incidental to the point that Haley missed out on touring experience that would have greatly benefitted her... No one said she needs to be part of a band, just that she could benefit from touring the way James and Casey did. A 'hit song' does her no good if people don't get to hear it

Getting to tour with a headliner exposes her to new fans, maybe selling more albums...are we so satisfied with the underwhelming sales and being dropped by her label, that we can say that a tour would not have benefitted or enhanced her 'journey to a long promising career'? I can't accept that what has occured is 'good enough', that there is no better scenario the way things turned out. Haley and LU deserved better, and a tour would have definitely helped...Sorry, I can't be satisfied with how it played out. She desrved better.
I don't recall stating anything 'inadequate' about Haley other than agreeing that I wished she had the same opportunity to tour....

[buzzenator]

^ I think it started with this premise...

Outcast Wrote:

Haley I think has fallen a little bit as a performer since Idol while James and Casey have grown.

Tusk Wrote:

Bluesman, I think you are misinterpreting what Outcast is saying, that because Haley hasn't been 'allowed' the touring experience, experience especially with her band, she hasn't been able to grow the way she is capable of. They haven't had time to gel. Even you can't deny that.

James and Casey have been touring, touring and more touring. They can't help but improve. These are not opinions these are facts, the more you do something, especially play together as a band, the better you get.

That, IMO, is a fair criticism. As Outcast said, we should look forward to 2013 as hopefully the touring experience will begin in earnest for Haley, and she will gain the experience with her band she should have gained last year.

Even though I see Tusk where you are trying to nuance or parse the statements about "growing" to soften the original statement by Outcast...I still would have to totally disagree with this assessment.

To say that Haley has not grown during the past year, even if you split hairs by referencing a lack of touring which would have helped...not buying any of it. If Haley had wanted to create a band, one that would have consistently performed together, it would have been incongruous with her position at Interscope. Her own management was not backing a Haley band formation. They were providing some musicians necessary to perform at a variety of public and private settings/promotional events.

The very comparison the two of you have made between James and Haley speaks to this divergent path each artist has taken. James going the heavy metal band route...and wasn't there a shake up with that mix of band members? Haley choosing and being chosen to be a solo artist with a variety of musicians around her. Using Casey as an example of touring reinforces the concept that you don't need a band to be growing or touring.

Sorry Outcast and Tusk...I'm not agreeing with any 20/20 hindsight that would have had Haley doing anything different to have grown more over the last year. Call it Monday Morning Quarterbacking or whatever...Haley was limited by the Interscope contract and the management decisions that she was obligated to.

To make the statement that you are not above criticizing an artist is simply self-serving to show a faux sophistication, i.e. the flask man. We've seen this attitude before on MJs..."I like Haley, but..."

I'm not starting anything here. I know Tusk you are looking for a PC way of tempering the original premise of Haley not growing. I'm simply not letting what was written slip by as being accepted as fact when it is not...at least by this Halien.

Again, we all love the Listen Up album. Even if we think there are many great singles on it, the buying public didn't choose one. It only lacked a bona fide hit single. To say it wasn't heard enough is sort of a chicken vs egg, what came first argument. If she had a hit single we wouldn't be discussing a lack of growth. Can I get 3 cents back on my nickel?

[Outcast]

Neither Tusk nor I are suggesting that Haley needs to front a band. Our point is that touring is still the most effective way for niche artists like Haley, James and Casey to break out and often forms the basis for airplay in their formats. This means not only doing small club acoustic gigs but also full band shows usually as an opener for a better known act or at a festival. They have a lot of other lessor known acts to compete with and they must always bring it if they want to rise above their competitors which means their backing bands much be in top form to effectively support them. And the only way a band can gel and perform perfectly in sync is if they play, play and play ALL TOGETHER ALL THE TIME. Let me be clear here that Haley herself didn't do anything wrong, it was her management and bookings agent that failed her in this regard by not booking her enough full band gigs. They denied her the opportunity to tour, so that she could gel with her band, make new fans and perform for her fans.

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BTW Tusk what I find the biggest head scatcher is that James, Haley and Casey are all with 19M but they could get James and Casey on tour but not Haley?

Perhaps the bookings agent (who's supposed to work with 19M) is the real problem. Haley is still with Red Light but James recently switched to TKO and Casey is with Delafont.

[Miguel]

what I find the biggest head scatcher is that James, Haley and Casey are all with 19M but they could get James and Casey on tour but not Haley?

Haley originally spoke of possibly touring later in the summer and then in the fall. Likely opening for a bigger name. Those plans apparently changed once "Free" failed to receive much airplay and "Listen Up!" flew under the radar.

So Buzz is correct that "2012 was an excellent first year" apart from the lack of a hit song. He was also correct that she was marketed as a solo artist. In fact, just about every former "American Idol Finalist" is. Even James and others who front a band.

His point that

Usually, we see the opposite, where the lead singer of a band breaks off and becomes a solo artist.

is a good one.

From a hypothetical marketing perspective, I'm curious if Haley had taken a step back and been marketed as "Reinhart and the Rastitutes" if that would have helped her slip the Idol label and better capture the attention of more independent-minded music fans.

While Casey does not yet have widespread recognition, he has slipped the Idol label to some extent because of his lower profile on the show, the time it took to release his album, the venues he has played, his use of the bass and his usually scruffy appearance. I think he is the least likely to be billed as "former American Idol finalist..." in the long run.

[Tusk]

Buzz, Im not parsing a thing nor did I claim Haley hasn't grown as an artist nor did I insist she needs to be part of a band ..... I dont know why you insist that I said this.... why are you putting words into my mouth? If anything Im bemoaning the missed opportunities that were in front of her

How does my wishing Interscope did more as being critical of Haley? For all the support I have given that is an insulting insinuation...

Saying that Free not hitting is THE reason that stopped plans for the tour is IMO speculation and just as much Monday Morning Quarterbacking as Im being accused of. Other than the video, not much else was done to promote it and intermittent, tiny radio station stops is not impressive to any audience.
Whether she choses to perform with Keith and John etc or anyone is STILL not the point.

The point is and has been Haley's fans have not been given hardly any chance to see her. She has missed on the experience of some sort of tour to the point that it felt like they were hiding hee.... Private events and little notice appearances in small bars and radio stations dont cut it.

[Himm2]

Please relax Tusk my friend. It's just a discussion and I don't think Buzz was intentionally trying to insult you, just simply making his own observation in comparison to yours. I agree with Miguel's middle ground observations and many of Yours & Buzz's & Outcast's comments, and a final outcome is what matters, not as important as everyone is making of the path to get there. I shouldn't say this but I think Outcast hit the nail on the head about the booking agency. I think they are making venues frustrated in trying to obtain Haley's services.