Haley's Vocal Range

[Tom22]

I'm glad people let my "self indulgent" (as simon would say) posts in this and another thread slide. Not that I said anything wrong but there was a lot of opinion that wasn't necessarily insightful spewed out.

I think the sharing of thoughts is probably a way of "venting" after a frustrating work week but hopefully not out of anger. Hopefully the internet scroll feature keeps it from being tedious for others when I run on.

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It is interesting how even using a term like "alto" with fairly standard agreement on range etc can be tricky.

I'm with Mercfan in that the point a singer begins to struggle is where you stop counting but if they're passable enough they can still sing the part that includes something that isn't truly in her range.

I also think that the typical Alto range is lower than Haley typically sings.

The girl in the video below is what I'd think of as a true alto. In the song below ... beyonce's "If I were a boy" they've started in a key that probably starts at her lowest passable note (passable, as in at the limits maybe just beyond where she's comfortable). I think they sing it in a key that has the song start at the very lowest range for even this true alto, that lets her to have the glory notes of the song within range.

Starting that low, the vast majority of the song is in Joanna Jone's (the girl bellow) sweet spots, and sweet it is in my opinion. And a full three steps lower than Beyonces studio version
(it could also relate to a key where her acapela group could let their best harmony's shine across all parts, bass to soprano.)




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I'm also putting a link below to a great little web page/blog entry that a young singer did describing the voices of about 7 known singers (including beyonce ) using some of the terms merc and others were using.

Really worth a quick look:

http://singers-voice-types-and-ranges.tumblr.com/

[kaypea]

Here's a couple of recordings.The first is Haley singing What You Don't Know from her album.From what I heard this is as high as she goes on the record and also the only time she spends that amount of time up there.The typical notes on the record are probably like a fourth to an octave and a fourth lower.I'm sure that all of the notes on the record could easily fit in either the alto or mezzo-soprano range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FttxgsbkahA

The other is a recording by a mezzo soprano opera singer doing a song from the standard repetoire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm60GkntPiM

Clearly Haley does not appraoach that range and if she(or just about any pop singer) spent that much time up that high on a typical pop song it would sound-well it would probably sound like it was playing at the wrong speed.

Granted that Haley does not/cannot reach the bottom of the alto range comfortably its also true that she does not-go up near the top of the the mezzo range except briefly for affect when-say she's singing live..And truthfully the opera singer has spent alot more time than Haley developing that part of her register because she's had to.

People can listen and compare and draw their own conclusions but for me-irregardless of the science or the math- Haley-the pop/rock/jazz singer will always be an alto.

[mercfan3]

Wow, I would have never listed Jessica Sanchez as a soprano. Granted, they have her range listed wrong.

BTW: you really shouldn't judge vocal categories based on recordings. It should be a live performance thing.

I will say this though, Haley's songs tend to be written to sing at the lower part of the register (which is middle alto..lower mezzo). Pop songs do this often though, because they tend to have a higher bridge/glory notes..and despite range..they just don't sound right if sung too high.

[30CamdenSquare]

I'm glad people let my "self indulgent" (as simon would say) posts in this and another thread slide. Not that I said anything wrong but there was a lot of opinion that wasn't necessarily insightful spewed out.

Tom - I can think of at least one very key point you made in your previous posts. And that was in order to come to any type of conclusion, we all needed to agree on what the defines of each vocal type and what we were comparing them against. And that's mainly my fault because beyond the ranges of....

Soprano: C4-C6
Mezzo-Soprano: A3-A5
Contra-Alto: F3-E5

....used as the range each voice type is responsible for covering in classical music (and listed unaltered for singers of popular music) I didn't know any specifics beyond that. Well I did know Contra-Alto's are typically strongest at the lower end of their range, Mezzo's typically in their mid-range, & Soprano's in their upper range and I should've mentioned that when I first asked the question.

Even the names we're using for each type differs. TBH, when Kaypea says he thinks Haley is an Alto, I don't know if he's using 3 vocal types (Alto, Mezzo-Soprano & Soprano) & is using the term Alto in place of Contra-Alto or if he's using 4 vocal types w/ Alto falling in between Contra-Alto & Mezzo-Soprano.

Other than that I think I get where he's coming from though. And I think it's that the ranges used to classify singers (& some instruments) in the classical system should remain unchanged even though popular music is sung lower than classical music. It's a valid point even if I don't agree with it 100%. I get it though.

What I was really wanting to know though, is if NON-Classical female vocalists were divided into Contra-Altos, Mezzo-Sopranos & Sopranos, which would Haley be? So if popular music is naturally sung lower than classical that's taken into account.

So if I'm trying to figure out Haley's voice type & I compare this video...

Note: Btw, it may help some people reading this thread to know that octaves start on C (not A), meaning each octave goes from C up to B from lowest to highest.

Note 2: the D3 listed is Haley using a technique called vocal fry to get down there in "Oh My". There's nothing wrong w/ that & it sounds really cool too, but it's considered outside her modal register. Also notice that she's able go over halfway up into the 5th octave using her chest voice when she wants to.



...to a voice range video of Amy & Adele. Who are always listed as Contra-Altos.

(Notice how much more they're singing in the 3rd octave & you don't hear their chest voices past the first couple of notes in the 5th octave)



After listening to these 2 videos back to back, unless we're classifying Amy & Adele as Tenors (which we're not right?), I'd say Haley is at least a Mezzo-Soprano, possibly a Soprano.

I just wanted to add that Amy, Adele & Haley are three of my favorites because of what they sing and the way they sing it rather than their vocal type.

OK that's all I got.

[kaypea]

Haley clearly doesn't go as low as Amy and Adele in these examples.They are contraltos.And they can go down a fair amount into tenor territory.But you'd never call them tenors.Haley also clearly doesn't go as high as the Mezzo I posted as an example. and never will to any degree spend that much time singing up that high for the rest of her career and that's why I have a hard time calling her a mezzo,and realizing that she's not a contralto,then to me she's an alto and as far as calling her a soprano she's not anywhere near that range save for when she might add a whistle tone.

In classical music if you're assigning opera roles-its Soprano,Mezzo Soprano or Contralto.Alto only refers to a vocal part-in a quartet or a chorus.So apparently in solo classical music there is nothing that calls for a solo alto part from what I can see.

At the same time a vast number of pop singers do not(like Haley) spend time singing in the range that mezzos sing.Nor do most of them,for the most part at least spend that much time singing down where Adele and Amy are singing on these cuts.That leaves a large area to try and put a word on what these singers are.As Mercfan pointed out someone tried to call Jessica Sanchez a soprano whick is kind of silly.Similarly-on a list of supposed mezzo sopranos in pop music you'll find someone like Bette Midler and others listed.l

TBH -I think that Haley-or any singer would have to have some kind of test done using some defined criteria to actually put a label on it. And if you used different criteria you might also get different answers,I'd think.

[mercfan3]

Haley's vocal range expands to E6, and she has absolutely no problem reaching it.

I guess another way to put this is, from where Haley's usual singing is (typically around D4, I'd say) her vocal range expands up for the most part. Meanwhile, most Alto's would expand down.

I really don't know how else to say this, but an alto is strongest in the lower notes. (not necessarily in their lower register, but rather in the lower female range) If she can't hit them. (And she really can't, her live vocal range only goes to A3) then she can't be an alto.

I know she often sings in her lower register, as that's where her songs start. But her lower notes are usually mid to perhaps even high notes for most altos. The signature for an alto is that they are stronger in lower notes. Haley isn't.

All pop music stars start singing in their lower notes. But the altos (Adele, Underwood, Amy), they'll start theirs even lower than Haley..because they can't reach the notes that Haley can reach..and thus the bridge (typically containing the glory type notes that are higher) need to be able to fit their voice.

Just because Haley doesn't often sing as high as those girls in the video you posted, it doesn't mean that she can't..and it doesn't mean that she's not a mezzo soprano. Those mezzo soprano's could sing all the notes in Haley's songs..where a lot of alto's (Unless they had an expanded range) would not be able to. (And I know that seems contrary to what I just said about the Alto notes, but my point is Haley doesn't even fit the baseline criteria for an alto, and she easily does for a mezzo soprano).



Those classical singers may have a larger range than Haley anyway (but funny enough, a lot of them can't sing higher, but can sing lower). That doesn't make Haley not a mezzo soprano. Another pop example is Justin Timberlake versus DeAndre Brackensick. They are both countertenors. (Falsetto singers, essentially). But Justin's range is F#2 to G5 (It's listed as B5...but he just does the MJ scream for A5 and B5..so that's also not part of his vocal range..) and Deandre's is D2 to C#6. DeAndre can obviously sing a heck of a lot more notes, including higher into his falsetto. But they are both Countertenors. (Even though they could easily sing all of the notes necessary to be tenors too..and often, their songs start even lower than a typical tenors would.)

I think it's important to remember, that a majority of pop singers aren't classically trained. But you don't have to sing all the notes that an opera singer could sing in order to be in one of those categories. Otherwise, for the majority of the population, only soprano's could be considered mezzo soprano's...and there would probably be about two soprano's in the choir room. And you'd have to make a split with the altos because most of them probably won't be able to reach all the higher notes necessary..and the ones that can, probably can't hit the lower notes.

It really isn't a matter of being able to hit all the notes a classical singer can hit. But rather, those classical singers strongest part of their range fall somewhere between those vocal ranges listed (A3 to A5, for example) and that's how they are sorted. (Similarly to how the strongest aspect of both Justin and DeAndre's voice are their falsettos..despite having the range to sing elsewhere)

[30CamdenSquare]

Mercfan & Kaypea - Thanks for the great posts you guys!

OK so should we use 4 categories then? Contra-Alto, Alto, Mezzo-Soprano, & Soprano.
Also should define the ranges like this

Soprano - C4-C6
Mezzo S - A3-A5
Alto - G3-G5
Contra-Alto F3-E5

Which keeps the classical ranges & slips Alto in-between Contra A. & Mezzo S. OR should we change it to this:

Soprano - C4-C6
Mezzo S - A3-A5
Alto - F3-F5
Contra-Alto D3-D5

Dropping Contra-Alto's down a minor 3rd & gives the Alto classification a little breathing room. It's nice & symetrical that way but I don't know if that brings their range too close to a tenor. (I guess we'd need to know if male tenors also sing Non-classical a little lower). Also, while it shows Amy & Adele hitting C3, C#3, D3 etc., those are the lowest notes in the phrases they're featuring so still might be outside of their comfort zone. I'm obvious going back & forth on this so what do you guys think?

If you'd like, I wonder if we could agree on a couple of Non-Classical Sopranos to compare Haley to. Mainly because I'd like to hear the difference. (Not Jessica Sanchez. I noticed that blogger seemed to think an awful lot of female vocalists were Sopranos). Kate Bush is the first that pops into my head. What are some other female vocalists that are obviously sopranos.

[kaypea]

Your honor-the defense rests.

[Tom22]

But ... lol we didn't define whether head voice counted.. or did we?

What about a falsetto?

One thing I'm not entire sure about is when they mix head voice and chest voice. Haley sort of does it here doesn't she ? It is her head voice but with a bit extra? When she gets to "you don't have to ask me, I won't waste your time" that's all head voice




RE Jessica seems to go use some similar aspects interchangeably full head voice which she sort of passes more as full voice and also the inbetween



But, I am at a loss a bit in terms of the definition. She can go to some pretty low notes too.. anyway I have no points other than its all making me think when I listen hard.

The one below isn't any 'great' performance but it's good amateur stuff : it would very nice to hear by a 18 year old at your local church though. It looks like it was done for family consumption.(probably a holy night greeting to over-seas relatives)



My ear has a hard time knowing those higher notes exactly -- certainly not in the alto range though ? .. and that "head voice" think it tricky.. in this she's definitely got some technique bringing something more to it from lower than her throat , right ? More words to mince i suppose.

I don't care about the Title but the concept of the manner in which the high notes are sung is interesting. Definitely a different sound throughout all 3 of these videos on the same notes.

.. and each girl hits the same notes with different techniques by discretion. Or am I not hearing well enough?

[mercfan3]

Yea, that's a big debate.

Personally, I count falsetto/head voice/whistle, so long as the singer uses it. Why wouldn't you count Justin Timberlake's falsetto as part of his range? He uses it in all of his songs, typically for half of his songs. Why wouldn't you count Mariah's whistle? She uses it so often. Which is one way of classifying it "does the singer use the tone."

As for where to categorize them. As I said before, an alto may be able to reach those notes. I don't really know where to stick Mariah, but if we wanted to call her an alto we could, and if we wanted to call her a soprano, we could. Her range is just that big. So it's not necessarily outside the range of an alto.

I honestly couldn't tell with Jessica. But I would have thought she was an alto or mezzo.